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Scroller Needing Therapy
Picture of Free Madness
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So, apparently Tapert and his writing team, which included an openly gay woman named Liz Friedman(sp), "knew what they were doing" as far as the lesbian subtext?
Personally, while I've always loved the idea of X and G as lovers, I eventually grew to appreciate them as more of close sisters, maybe "sismance" as opposed to "bromance" for want of a better term.
Seriously, I love a good love story and if it bashes down walls of "normal" great! As long as it's a well-written love story that makes sense and hits us in all the places it needs to. That's hard to do all the time.
I haven't always known what to make of Tapert. I loved Xena, of course, and still do! Tapert and Co. wrote some killer material throughout the show. However, at times, he seemed to be going more for sensation rather than a good story. The "comedy" later in the seasons were way too campy sometimes and just seemed like "fillers." Then again, maybe a refusal to take oneself seriously all the time allows for better writing toward the end??? Perhaps. Big Grin

Regardless of whatever they were to each other, Xena and Gabrielle are two of my favorite characters in any show!!!

Interview with LL about X and G Relationship




"People say I make strange choices, but they're not strange for me. My sickness is that I'm fascinated by human behavior, by what's underneath the surface, by the worlds inside people."

~~Johnny Depp.


 
Posts: 3148 | Location: Dreamland | Registered: 06 April 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Xena and Gabrielle as sister-figures was how I saw it. At least in the first four seasons when the stories were more coherent. Nothing against them being lovers but i didn't see it that way.
Having the relationship as a "sismance" opens it up to different levels of possible story-lines whereas as lovers, meh, it really destroys the variety that spices things up. It seems in season 6, things got too romance-y. That kills the mystery of what the relationship is or isn't and when the mystery is gone, so is the fun.

The writers and Crapert lost direction of who Gabrielle was when Lucy became pregnant. If Crapert had been married to Renee instead & she was knocked up, then the dynamics might have stayed the same. Xena would be protecting Gabrielle, and 'hope'fully her next daughter (or son) would not have been another Hope.
 
Posts: 10498 | Location: State of Insanity | Registered: 11 May 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Besotted Scroller
Picture of Brucy Braless
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quote:
Originally posted by xenacrazed:
Xena and Gabrielle as sister-figures was how I saw it. At least in the first four seasons when the stories were more coherent. Nothing against them being lovers but i didn't see it that way.


The writers and Crapert lost direction of who Gabrielle was.


I SO Agree with these points.

In fact I wrote a thread which was REALLY unappreciated on Tom's board way back...
Asking "Did the Lesbians kill Xena?"

As the show dwindled in its last years....I would ask people if they watched the show..

And the reply was ....."they're lesbians arent they....?" with a sour look on their faces.
Of course the show was never popular around here anyway.
So no new viewers...
I would have liked More seasons.....but the subtext needed to be subtle....

It was dropped by WUTV ch 29 in the first season..
I didnt catch the last 2-3 eps until reruns on cable....maybe after season 3

I always disapproved of how they handled Gabrielle...
If they had developed her properly when Lucy was injured in season 2 They could of made several Gabby episodes...

Maybe had her kidnapped & trying to find her way back to Xena...
I didnt think the body switch thing was a good idea...
Season 2 is probably my least fave..

Then near the end they made Gabby into a Xena clone.....wrong way for me there too...

Same thing with the Finale...
They wanted to go full circle & tie it to the beginning
but circumstances said ... no, not gonna happen.

they stuck with a bad idea....making a REALLY crap ending...

I also think RT mishandled the show & was too Cavalier with the rights to it.
I suspect he thought he could do something special like it again....
If he has Im certainly unaware of it.
 
Posts: 2842 | Location: Bflo,NY USA | Registered: 28 June 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Besotted Scroller
Picture of Brucy Braless
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quote:
Originally posted by Thunderstruck:
So, apparently Tapert and his writing team, which included an openly gay woman named Liz Friedman(sp), "knew what they were doing" as far as the lesbian subtext?
Personally, while I've always loved the idea of X and G as lovers, I eventually grew to appreciate them as more of close sisters

Seriously, I love a good love story and if it bashes down walls of "normal" great! As long as it's a well-written love story that makes sense and hits us in all the places it needs to.

Regardless of whatever they were to each other, Xena and Gabrielle are two of my favorite characters in any show!!!


Hay! thanks for the link..I probably spent 3-4 hours watching Lucy interviews...

Yet ANOTHER thing I kept hearing back then is..'Why cant a strong female character NOT be a lesbian?'

As if normal women/girls felt THEY were being undermined by the lesbian slant....

the only way to be potent was to be butch.... I guess was the complaint.

Its nice to have a convo here..insteada talking past each other.. like say the music thread..LoL
 
Posts: 2842 | Location: Bflo,NY USA | Registered: 28 June 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Brucy Braless:
.

Its nice to have a convo here..insteada talking past each other.. like say the music thread..LoL


i'm always up for a good music talk. i'm just talked out on music from before the late '90s cuz it's all been played & talked about enough. Then again, music nowadays is so diverse that many people seem to like bands others have never even heard about. i read that a lot on various music forums. Bandcamp is loaded with great new music. Anyone who can't find a dozen bands to enjoy there doesn't like music in the first place, IMO.
 
Posts: 10498 | Location: State of Insanity | Registered: 11 May 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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FUCK FUCK FUKC I had a GIANT WORD SALAD TYPED UP HERE & Accidentally deleted the whole thing with a bad keystroke.....

Starting Over...

The Music comment was meant as an example not a suggestion.
I only listen to Music driving & when the idiots next door are so loud I need to drown them out.

I also would say politics is not a good topic as I dont wanna annoy you
when your going thru tuff times...

I think we agree on some of the problems but are exact opposites on their solutions... I am a socialist....
We ALL should own everything.....equally...No rich Ba$tard$ allowed
Wink

Religion is probably out to as Im a born again Atheist..
A bit of an intolerant one at that...Sorry.

So I guess were mostly left with friendly nonsense...eh?

So you actually came & went while I was making food & watch PBS newshour...I think.





I said Duh!
 
Posts: 2842 | Location: Bflo,NY USA | Registered: 28 June 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Scroller Needing Therapy
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Brucy, I actually never thought of the issue with, why can't a strong woman not be a lesbian. That certainly makes sense. Hell, look at Buffy!!! Was she a lesbian? No. She wasn't even butch! But no one doubted her strength...

Taking it further tho, and this isn't totally political, just philosophical at least. i never quite understood why lesbians need to be "butch" anyway. Razz

When I was exploring my sexuality(having pigeonholed myself with the label "lesbian" from age 19 to age 24 until I finally accepted I am bi and bisexuality is NOT a myth, dammit!!! smash) I read the iconic "Rubyfruit Jungle" by Rita Mae Brown. I never forgot one part of the book where the lead character Molly was asked in a gay bar if she was "butch" or "femme," by Mighty Mo, the butch who tried to buy Molly a drink, etc. Molly turned to her gay male friend and asked what the "flying fukk" is this butch/femme thing. The guy explained it to her, and Molly's response...I still remember the best part of it...here it is!

"That's the stupidest dumb-assed thing I ever heard tell of....If I want a man I'll go for the REAL thing, not one of these cheap imitations!!!"

*MIC DROP!!!!* smash Big Grin

I mean really. There's never been any need for that, IMHO. Also, at least to my way of thinking, that can be seen as an insult to lesbians in general. What...they need to "act" and "look" like a man to go with a woman??? Why? Are they trying to make it like only men can go for women...by "imitatin'" men??? Well, now with the whole transgender thing having exploded a few years ago, I can see how some people tap into their opposite sex side and identify with that MORE than their other side. Yeah, I believe it's scientific, we ALL have a masculine and feminine side. It ain't just spiritual and such, like those new age philosophies of "Divine Masculine and Divine Feminine," etc. etc. etc.

I myself, when I was looking for a woman to be with, loved me some epic feminine women. The women I went for who were strong and all...they still were quite feminine(long hair too! Smile ) Also? Xena was never NOT feminine, in my opinion. She was tough, she was a fighter, yes, but she was as feminine as Mother Earth. She was a HOTTIE in that Cleopatra getup and many other awesome dresses, hair, makeup...she had it all. OOOFF!!! Big Grin

I loved Gabrielle when she was more of everything...strong, vulnerable, smart...didn't much like the one-dimensional "warrior" she became...xc and I did agree on that a few years back when discussing Xena.

Anywho...yeah, music and me are old friends. Smile I love the music in Xena, and LOVE Lucy's voice, especially those wailing songs they played in that ep where she went to find Gabrielle after she fell down the hole...ugh, what was that, "Adventures in the Sin Trade?" I think so...powerful.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Free Madness,




"People say I make strange choices, but they're not strange for me. My sickness is that I'm fascinated by human behavior, by what's underneath the surface, by the worlds inside people."

~~Johnny Depp.


 
Posts: 3148 | Location: Dreamland | Registered: 06 April 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Scroller Needing Therapy
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quote:
Originally posted by Brucy Braless:
quote:
Originally posted by xenacrazed:
Xena and Gabrielle as sister-figures was how I saw it. At least in the first four seasons when the stories were more coherent. Nothing against them being lovers but i didn't see it that way.


The writers and Crapert lost direction of who Gabrielle was.


I SO Agree with these points.

In fact I wrote a thread which was REALLY unappreciated on Tom's board way back...
Asking "Did the Lesbians kill Xena?"

As the show dwindled in its last years....I would ask people if they watched the show..

And the reply was ....."they're lesbians arent they....?" with a sour look on their faces.
Of course the show was never popular around here anyway.
So no new viewers...
I would have liked More seasons.....but the subtext needed to be subtle....

It was dropped by WUTV ch 29 in the first season..
I didnt catch the last 2-3 eps until reruns on cable....maybe after season 3

I always disapproved of how they handled Gabrielle...
If they had developed her properly when Lucy was injured in season 2 They could of made several Gabby episodes...

Maybe had her kidnapped & trying to find her way back to Xena...
I didnt think the body switch thing was a good idea...
Season 2 is probably my least fave..

Then near the end they made Gabby into a Xena clone.....wrong way for me there too...

Same thing with the Finale...
They wanted to go full circle & tie it to the beginning
but circumstances said ... no, not gonna happen.

they stuck with a bad idea....making a REALLY crap ending...

I also think RT mishandled the show & was too Cavalier with the rights to it.
I suspect he thought he could do something special like it again....
If he has Im certainly unaware of it.


I must've missed this post! A lot of thought provoking stuffage here...

I agree on pretty much everything altho TBH I can't form an opinion on Season 2 til I actually watch it again...I watched almost all of Season 1 in 2016 and got sidetracked, and now I need to start over again with fresh perspective.

The Finale:

WHY? That was always the question I asked myself. So many "why's," there was no room for Z!!!! Razz Big Grin

I mean, why didn't they end it more like Star Trek: Next Generation like, with a possibility for more...or a movie even??? Hell, they could've made an AWESOME movie after that show ended! Maybe Tapert was just burned out...hell, maybe Lucy and Renee were too. Still...really way too much content in that finale. Akemi...why?? Just why? Why introduce a whole new "Gabrielle" type in the last episode, someone whose death Xena mourned so much but STILL stayed evil afterwards...just WHY?
Actually I always wondered the same about Lao Ma...WHY did she not turn Xena around, why did it all end up being Gabrielle??? Xena credited her at every turn, for changing her life, words to that effect. But wait, where did Hercules go after awhile??? Didn't he give Xena the first incentive to try doing good deeds instead of bad? That came up several times in Season 1...

The lesbian subtext

I agree that it should have stayed a mystery to allow for more possibilities. I also think that if it "had" been that they were really lovers...if they were gonna do it, be overt about it but be authentic, be deep, keep it about the love, not the fact that they're too women and this is such a "radical" or "progressive" thing. Leave politics out of it. This is why that would NOT work today. Too many damn politics in LGBT-themed shows or movies these days!!! smash Like, "Look at us, we're GAY!' Not "look at us, we love each other, this is real love, I would die for her, bla bla bla," You know like those classic love stories, Wuthering Heights, Ghost, the Notebook...those types of things. I like Joss Whedon's handling of it in Buffy. Smile I mean, he really rocked on Willow and Tara. That was just...special. Smile Too bad it didn't last but...for that time, it was just EPIC.

Gabrielle...there were times I just wanted to smack her lol. I'm sorry. Razz I 'm not a fan of the Gab Drag, but I did get tired of her whiney-arsed soul-searching eps, especially the Way of Love shite. I don't know if that was worse than the warrior or not. But it did kinda make me understand why the warrior Gab was so ruthless and crazy. Ugh! I liked Eli tho, that was the strange part. But he was not the one Gabrielle should have followed. I don't know who...she obviously needed a father figure of some sort for whatever reason. I wonder whatever happened to Iolaus being the "other half of her soul?" Big Grin Well I don't know if they resolved that or not, gotta rewatch and remember, but in some cases, there seemed a lot of unfinished beginnings to stories throughout the show. They could have tied all that into the finale. But noooo... Razz Roll Eyes




"People say I make strange choices, but they're not strange for me. My sickness is that I'm fascinated by human behavior, by what's underneath the surface, by the worlds inside people."

~~Johnny Depp.


 
Posts: 3148 | Location: Dreamland | Registered: 06 April 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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i loved season 2, except for some of the too silly comedy eps. It was seasons 5 & 6 that i thought sucked, with a few exceptions in S6.

There was a thread on this board long ago that asked what the show was about. It might seem like a dumb question but it wasn't. There were a lot of different answers. The answer i liked best was that the show was about the changes Gabrielle went through and Xena's reaction to them- usually physical reactions.

Xena basically rarely changed during S1-4. Gabrielle was ever changing. This is part of the reason S5-6 rang false. After following the Way of Eli, then slaughtering the Roman soldiers, then being resurrected- all she did for the remainder of the show was be a mini-Xena, a Xena-bot or Xena Jr. At the point Eli brought them back, she should have gone back home & sought some inner reflection. Xena should have been outraged at being pregnant (raped by Callisto). None of this happened because Lucy was pregnant and her idiot husband director had his way. He didn't care about the show anymore, he said as much in an interview where he compared the show to an assembly line.

i kept waiting for Gabrielle to change...sometime...during the final 2 seasons & she never did. That was against character. Xena became too pleasant & boring & sentimental. With so many places & characters they could have visited, they mostly revisited the same 'ol same 'ol, except for the Ring trilogy which seemed more like a S3 storyline.

Gabrielle was called a "warrior bard" which i also hated. She was no longer a bard, just a bloodthirsty warrior, and that made no sense.

As for the subtext, it was better when it was played either way, maybe they were friends, maybe they were more than friends, your guess is as good as mine as long as TPTB didn't say so either way. I thought S6 leaned too much towards more than friends, ruining the mystery.

The 25 year sleep was a rip off as was the Eve/Twilight of the Gods arc. They should have let X&G die & stay dead at the end of S4 as the writing suffered badly afterwards. And, i'll say it again, letting pregnant Lucy become pregnant Xena killed the series outright.

The "FIN" finale was the icing on the sucking cake. i didn't even recognize the characters in this ep they were so poorly written. The entire ep was poorly written. Xena committed suicide, dying for a worthless cause that in any other ep could have been worked out by her many skills. She was always a brilliant tactician in other eps, here she just gave up because some Japanese whore asked her to. Um, ok.
 
Posts: 10498 | Location: State of Insanity | Registered: 11 May 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Like any good art form, Xena: Warrior Princess means different things to different people.

It's not up to the show's creators, the people who acted in it, or the fandom to decide unilaterally how it is to be interpreted.

There is definitely lesbian subtext to be seen in Xena. Whether or not you think it crosses over into main text is up for debate, but in some episodes it seems to.

I personally love most of the comedic episodes. Some of them show more about how the characters tick than the dramatic ones.


~~~~~~~~~~

 
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