I read this book yesterday which was written by Neal Boortz and Georgia Congressman John Linder to drum up support for the Fair Tax Act of 2005(HR 25; S 25). The proposed legislation abolishes the federal income and payroll taxes and replaces it with a national sales tax on goods and services. The rate is projected at 23% in order to replace current revenues from Income Tax, Social Security and Medicare.

Right now, I'm really liking this plan. It makes sense to me. Just wondering if others had heard of this bill and what their thoughts were. I don't know that this necessarily had to go in Fight Club (but I thought it would be a hell of a lot more fun to abuse Congress without having to restrain ourselves).


The PAC that originally studied the problem of the tax system (and advocates the Fair Tax Act of 2005) has a website up that explains the issues and links you to the text of the bill. I include it for discussion purposes only, NOT to try to sell you on a viewpoint. As I said, I'm intrigued by the idea, but have not made a final decision on whether I support it.

Americans for Fair Taxation
How do you think tax systems should be reformed?

My opinion is this
Sales tax is a Regressive tax ..
People on Social security & welfare pay no income taxes as it would be dumb to give government money to people & then tax them on it,no???

Sales tax here is already 8+% how much more would I have to pay to cover my fair share of YOUR (plural) income tax.


You want tax revenues?
Double corporate taxes ...this will ONLY place them at where they were in the last boom cycle.

I think if there is corporate welfare, fuckin rich people can pay the taxes for it.

I would do away with sales tax altogether make ALL taxes based on income.Eliminate ALL loop holes.Then taxes can be made fair.


Or better yet make a liveable minimum wage.
Then tax fairness will be less of an issue.

Think Im wrong..??
What would Xena do..??

WOO HOO people below the poverty level will
pay no Taxes ...
Yay!! Im set for FUCKIN LIFE...!!!

Since Im no where Near being rich enough to live in Poverty...
Oh Wait a minute ... just stop adjusting for inflation & Viola....
Im too wealthy to get Food Stamps even thought I barely have enough to pay an average rent including utilities around here & in most of the US Id have to be homless @ $10g a year.


Lets not burden those downtrodden rich folk...
Repeal stuff like the inheritance tax....

I have a better idea VOTE the cowardly thieving dishonest REPUBLICANS OUT of Office & lets have some SANE government here in the US.. we got the Taliban out of Afghanistan.

We can do it...

Remember:
Those anti-abotion, anti -gay rights,anti-science throwback conservative Bastards hate us for OUR FREEDOM.

Strike a blow against global tryanny..
Kill a selfish Republican idiot TODAY!!!!!


Thank you...
the moral minority

quote:

Everyone pays their fair share of taxes, and with the FairTax rebate, spending up to the poverty level is tax free.

How are they going to monitor what we spend? Does this sound like Big Brother to only me?

I didn't spend a lot of time at this website because I think it is a crazy as a three dollar bill. I can tell you this movement was fresh in the early 1970's with Evangelical Christians! I don't know what their beef was, something about having to support a government that they didn't agree with. They wanted a complete repeal of all taxes. I bet they are behind this.

Here one major problem to consider: We are a consumerist based society. If we tax everything 23% do you think our ecomomy would survive?

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Originally posted by Nanzar:

quote:

Everyone pays their fair share of taxes, and with the FairTax rebate, spending up to the poverty level is tax free.

How are they going to monitor what we spend? Does this sound like Big Brother to only me?

If I'm not mistaken, the government already knows what we spend, BECAUSE we have to file our taxes. Where we go to school, where we live, where we go to church, any organizations we donate to (sounds like Big Brother already in effect) are all information the government has and stores away. And could possibly use in the future against us. Who knows?! Ahh life with the Patriot Act, ain't it grand?

I would think that because we are a consumerist based economy, things would be fine. You'd have those multi millionaire bling bling super stars finally paying for stuff and the poor broke college kid or struggling middle class family paying less. At least I would.

I haven't decided whether I think it's a good idea yet. I pay as close to the mark as I can, because I hate the idea of the government holding my money, all year, INTEREST FREE. I'd rather have a little less, and have the government have less of my money to give back.

But that's just me and I'm in a super pissy mood today.

quote:

Originally posted by Nanzar:

quote:

Everyone pays their fair share of taxes, and with the FairTax rebate, spending up to the poverty level is tax free.

How are they going to monitor what we spend? Does this sound like Big Brother to only me?

I didn't spend a lot of time at this website because I think it is a crazy as a three dollar bill. I can tell you this movement was fresh in the early 1970's with Evangelical Christians! I don't know what their beef was, something about having to support a government that they didn't agree with. They wanted a complete repeal of all taxes. I bet they are behind this.

Here one major problem to consider: We are a consumerist based society. If we tax everything 23% do you think our ecomomy would survive?

While, I would never begrudge my fellow American her right to have an uninformed opinion, if you had at least read the FAQ (or the first three questions of it) you would know that whichever agency replaces the IRS will issue "prebate" checks monthly.

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How does the rebate work? All valid Social Security cardholders who are U.S. residents receive a monthly rebate equivalent to the FairTax paid on essential goods and services, also known as the poverty level expenditures. The rebate is paid in advance, in equal installments each month. The size of the rebate is determined by the Department of Health & Human Services’ poverty level multiplied by the tax rate. This is a well-accepted, long-used poverty-level calculation that includes food, clothing, shelter, transportation, medical care, etc.

This is so those with low incomes purchasing the necessities of life are not burdened.

As for how this plan was developed, it was at the behest of a group of Houston business men who approached several teams of economists and asked them to develop an alternative taxation model. Yes, capitalist bastards, every single one of them. They might have stumbled onto something. I will admit I have no idea what their religious leanings are, but those damned Texans are wily. I didn't realize that Evangelical Christians were the new anti-Christ. Thanks for the heads up.

The proposed tax is not a something for nothing. Theoretically, you'll be bringing home 23% more if the income tax is abolished. Also keep in mind that the price of consumer goods today includes all business and manufacturing expenses--including taxes. I don't think there'd really be that much of a difference in the cost of goods once it evened out. It doesn't take away the tax burden, it just simplifies the collection of it.

It also applies across the board, if the terribly pointless and personality free Paris Hilton wants to spend $30 grand on a diamond collar for her obnoxious fashion accessory of a dog, she gets to pay the sales tax of 23% of it and actually contribute to funding Social Security and Medicare--which she doesn't do now as a non-worker. There's no dodging a sales tax with high paid accountants who know all the tricks.

Sara, AMEN sister! I hate the fact that Uncle Sam gets an interest free loan from me.

Now, I need to go find my cross-purely as a protective measure. Heathens to the left of me, evangelical Christians to the right.

I heard a proposal that sounded something like this one while listening to NPR recently. I figure I pay taxes all the time anyway even though I'm not working-- I have to buy toilet paper and laundry soap like anyone else (except I'm not a taxpayer by most people's lights since I'm exempt from income tax).

This doesn't sound as if it'd hurt the businesses any. People would complain about a higher sales tax but still buy stuff. Like cigarettes and booze are taxed out the wazoo yet tons of people still buy both. I'm not sure how well it would fly with the Feds. Granted it's a lot less paperwork and headaches involved. It's also a rare bird who manages to get under the radar and not get their name in some database anywhere.

I'm kinda not sure how it'd fly but it can't be any more suckful than how the working and middle class folk pay more of their income to income tax than wealthier people with many tax shelters. I know this won't fly with Libertarians-- taxes is swear words to Libertarians!

Ok Im gunshy becuase EVERY claim to make taxes "easier & fairer & saner" since RR has lowered taxes for the wealthy & businesses & screwed the average american.There is no way this will go thru & not be lobbied into a worse deal than we have now...

Also it taxes SPENDING...Shit I can can go to Canada for 2 bucks a trip (If I remember rightly)

& Pay no American Sales Tax Peopela along ALL borders could do the same.Whats to stop Off shore 'Stores on ships for the Coasts...??


Finally & most important whats to stop the Wealthy from just having 2 homes & buying most stuff in a foreign country..???

This will NEver work out to be even as fair as what we have now without:

1 a more honest press.
2 a evenly divided government at a minimum.


It would be best with an old fashioned liberal government to really get things fair.As they are the MOST unfair as they have EVER been in my entire long & dusty life.

Maybe I will write more when its not 4 am & Im clear headed.I suspect what you read was pretty one sided as it was written by the advocates.

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Ok Im gunshy becuase EVERY claim to make taxes "easier & fairer & saner" since RR has lowered taxes for the wealthy & businesses & screwed the average american.

Fair enough, skepticism is a good thing. *s*

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Also it taxes SPENDING...Shit I can can go to Canada for 2 bucks a trip (If I remember rightly)

& Pay no American Sales Tax Peopela along ALL borders could do the same.Whats to stop Off shore 'Stores on ships for the Coasts...??

Canada may be convenient for you, but most of us? Not so much. Mexico isn't all that convenient for most us either. Will people try and tax dodge? Don't people do it now?

Off shore ships for shops? Considering the costs of the ship, the trouble of transporting the goods out there, getting people out there, the time it would take to get beyond the 12 mile fishing waters....well, my time (and hell, convenience) is important to me, is it to other people?

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Finally & most important whats to stop the Wealthy from just having 2 homes & buying most stuff in a foreign country..???

I dunno, what's stopping them now? Why aren't the wealthy all renouncing their US citizenship and becoming citizens of Bermuda? Why doesn't everyone become a resident of Texas (which has no state income tax)? People live where they want to live.

What makes you think stuff is cheaper in other countries? Some stuff is, some stuff isn't. Don't ignore the VAT of Europe which taxes the increase of value of goods at every level of production. I found out the summer I lived in Switzerland that, although I was easily earning three times as much for the relatively lowly position I was in as I would at home, I didn't have anywhere near the buying power.

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Maybe I will write more when its not 4 am & Im clear headed.I suspect what you read was pretty one sided as it was written by the advocates.

Well, yeah. That's why I started the thread. To get other views. To get some good arguments against it before making a decision on whether I support it.

quote:

Originally posted by Captain Hook 'em:

While, I would never begrudge my fellow American her right to have an uninformed opinion...

We are one. I adore you.

p.s. love the sig.

There is no greater mistake than the hasty conclusion that opinions are worthless because they are badly argued.

- Thomas H. Huxley

By the way.....the 'fair' tax concept has been around since Ronny Reagan & his "Ketchup is a Vegetable" crowd... it was called Flat Tax... tho it was still income tax..

So whos 'un-informed' now..????

In truth there are better more eloquent minds than mine who have been opposed to this type of thing since the 80s & it wasnt a fresh idea even then... I will bow to their collective wisdom.


Calling a plate of shit 'ambrosia' doesnt really make it the food of the gods...now ,does it???


Calling a poorly run governamental waste of time & resources.. the Dept of Homeland Security doesnt really make us any safer, now does it..???

Attacking Iraq for personal reasons doesnt really make it a 'War' does it..???

Ok this is gettin pretty far from what I intened to write while I was makin breakfast .. so .....there..

I recommend more research in a better place...

quote:

Originally posted by Sara:

quote:

Originally posted by Captain Hook 'em:

While, I would never begrudge my fellow American her right to have an uninformed opinion...

We are one. I adore you.

p.s. love the sig.

On a Lighter note:

I know that there are people who do not love their fellow man, and I hate people like that!
- Tom Lehrer (1928 - )

Back to the Fair tax:

"Once you consent to some concession, you can never cancel it and put things back the way they are."

-- Howard Hughes

yeah, and your point would be?

Im not really sure to which of Insanely Brilliant comments you are referring so I'll just roll on like the Juggernut Genius Im so well known to be..

There are many dis-advantages to not having all the money in the world .... so...
if we REALLY wanna be 'fair' there oughta be at least 1 dis-advantge to being rich....

Right now its that one hasta pay alotta taxes....

If one were to dislike this immensly, then maybe one should just not get rich...???

but Brucy...the rich would pay a shitload under this new scheme. They'd contribute way more than you or I ever could.

ummmmm.. Didnt the Cigarette Smoking Man say :
"As long as Im alive that will never happen."


I dont see this trick actually doing that ....Look at the Medicare Drug benefit....

Im sick. There may be an expensive medicine that MIGHT help me..
The benefit works against me if it changes anything at all ... because its becoming less likely I can get a portion of it free from drug companies...


It will NEVER go thru in a fashion that causes the rich to part with more cash... N E V E R !!!


Besides collecting it on the sales tax side is just a BAD Idea....

I wouldnt trust businesses to gather our nations collective wealth in a honest fashion.
This just begs for a million cheats to siphon some off..
It would be Impossible to keep track of all the collection points,no???

You 'pretended' you had an open mind about this when you posted it...it rather appears not.

I feel I have pointed out some glaring flaws with this & you ignore them &/or dispute them.

Brucy, the whole point of discussion is to go back and forth.

CLosed mind? Hi, Pot, I'm Kettle.

Australia switched to a Goods and Services Tax (GST) not so long ago. 10% of everything we buy is taxed.

As a result more of the richies have been sprung when they've tried to cheat the system.

The cost of living seems not to have rised significantly.

We still have individual income tax to pay, but poorer and sicker people are given concessions. Then again, we have a Medicare system that means it is free to walk into any hospital Emergency room.

Some essential items such as bread, milk, fresh food and rent are exempt from the GST.

I'm only one person, but the GST is working for me so far. And I was a BIG opponent of the system when it was first mentioned.

Tax in the US isn't fair now. There will be loopholes in any new tax system that are unfair.

The question is really which tax system is likely to be the MOST unfair? Avoid that one at all costs.

quote:

Originally posted by Captain SWOTS:
Closed mind? Hi, Pot, I'm Kettle.

Ok... I never claimed to have an open mind 'bout this...

As I thought you did in your opening post...

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I include it for discussion purposes only, NOT to try to sell you on a viewpoint. As I said, I'm intrigued by the idea, but have not made a final decision on whether I support it.

So I have been giving reasons why this isnt a good Idea....
I admit to having such a kneee jerk bad reaction to it that I didnt even read the page before I lashed out against it ..
that seemed unfair so I read & wrote more...

I think/feel there is one thing presumed that I would dispute.
some of the ultra-rich have to contend with present tax rates close to 50%.....Sure they dodge what they can, who wouldnt at that rate..??

But I doubt if so many are dodging so much that a mere 23% would cover it.
So I think most rich will be paying less...

I will also re-address my problem with the'Bush-Speak' calling a tax a FAIR TAX doesnt make it so...

there was a program on PBS in their FRONTLINE series called 'the persuaders'...

It explains how Bush & the Neocons always mange to find the right way to make their views as palatable as possible...
Very enlightening & will be THE most important innovation in mass manipulation in politics of the near future...


Back to your Tax 'scheme'(your words heehee)

I just plain dont like this sort of idea....
most of then are dishonest & take advantage of
common wisdom fallacies I suspect.

In all honesty I could probably make a list of at least 25 things I consider much more pressing & important, than tax reform.


1 Overpopulation
2 environmental issues
3 Insane & nutty politics & leadership in US
4 " " " & religions Everywhere

to just create a cursory list.



I admit I have found it a bit exasperating that all of my suggested faults with this just seem to disappear like farts in a wind storm in your replys.

Yes ....yes they do ,Precious.....

Actually, the President's tax "reform" panel has refused to consider the national sales tax as a replacement according to recent reports in the media.

So it does not have the presidential seal of approval.

And, though you may not believe it, I'm not totally convinced.