quote:

"I don't accept defeat. There are always choices. I'm done paying for my past mistakes. My responsibility now is you."

quote:

Originally posted by The Rise and Fall of the Brass Razoo:
I agree on many counts. Yes, Xena WAS a mass murderer, and I always had the worst time watching her evil side. I mean--some of the stuff she did, man, it made me wonder why in the world Gabrielle of all people was painted as her main salvation. Ok, well Xena did want to change her ways, starting with "Sins of the Past." It wasn't totally all Gabrielle, altho there was SO MUCH in that dang show that had Xena professing Gabrielle as some kinda "personal savior." For this reason alone, I can understand a romance blooming--otherwise why would Gabrielle be more special than say, frickin' Lao Ma, who was SOOOO much more evolved in amazing ways than Gabrielle ever was? Hell, if Lao Ma couldn't save Xena, why on Earth would Gabrielle have that effect on her? Even if she did want to change her ways, well...I always wondered why in the world Lao Ma had that effect on her, only to have Xena go right back to killing people again. The situation with Cyan of the Amazons I could understand better because of Alti. Alti totally ruined any redemption Xena might have been able to obtain with the help of the Amazons...

Xena was reluctant to have Gabrielle follow her at first. Eventually Xena would trust Gabrielle's instinct amd judgement as it was more often unselfish & for the greater good. But still, after 2 & a half yrs traveling together, Xena was still able to kill Gabrielle in the Bitter Suite. i don't think Akemi had any effect on Xena- i didn't even recognize Xena in the finale. Xena was far from ready to change when she met Lao Ma but she did have am instance where she might have had things not gone wrong (Borias, Alti, etc).


In writing this, though, I missed almost all the episodes of Hercules where Xena was there. If I remember correctly, Hercules and Xena had some kind of romantic altercation somewhere along the line. HERCULES could have had a big effect on Xena wanting to atone in the first place. By the time she met Gabrielle, well, she had done at least SOME soul-searching, so she was a lot more receptive to Gabrielle's purity, and Gabrielle reminded her of many young women who became friends with Xena when she was still doing her killing, innocent and pure women who had an effect on Xena. Like--say, the one in Season 4(?) when Xena went back into the Land of the Dead or wherever, to find Gabrielle after she fell down the hole in that big Dahok standoff. I am so foggy on what season that was, but the "firey hole death" of Gabrielle and Xena's profound grief over that which drove her to "return to a world of darkness I promised myself I'd never return to--but it's the only way I can see you again." Anyway, there was this young girl that was in that place that Xena went to, the one who shunned Xena saying, "You caused me nothing but pain."

The Herc/Xena trilogy- to some people- isn't considered canon. i dunno, it was poorly written, especially the 2nd & 3rd parts. i didn't buy Xena changing because Hercules saved her or believed in her or whatever. It was too flimsy. Plus we didn't know at that time just how evil Xena was. As for the season 4 ep, "Adv In sin Trade", you're thinking of Anokin. Anokin was never explained properly. What effect did she have on Xena? they never went into detail. It may be that Xena- who never got to have a proper youth because of her village being sacked & her brother killed- looked to younger girls to live her lost life through. i don't think it has to be a given that it's romance. i've known ppl who lived their lost childhood/teen years through others of that age and they were not romantically involved.

There were several women like Gabrielle who could have helped Xena find her way to wanting to atone...and then there was...(cough) AKEMI. That was just over the top. That...just didn't work. But never mind that, the finale really isn't worth considering as having any kind of real contribution to such a great story.

yeah the finale was a forced work featuring unrecognizable lead characters that Rob Crapert had lost touch with. Evil Xena would never had mourned some slut that betrayed her. ha ha!

The point is, Xena made SUCH a fuss over Gabrielle throughout the show. Gabrielle this, Gabrielle that...literally, she painted Gabrielle as THE ONE who, in the end, saved her. For this reason, I can understand the relationship going further than friendship. Sure, there was Hercules, but obviously that romance did not last. Gabrielle...she lasted. I can't fathom why Xena would LOVE her so much if there hadn't ended up being more going on.

i can see how ppl see that but it can also be seen as a sisterly kind of love. Once season 5 arrived & Eve came along, Gabrielle was just an after-thought at many times. She was remade into this Xena Jr mindless zombie thing. The bard was gone. The greater good replaced with greater killing by her sais. Honestly if they had killed Gabrielle of in season 5 or 6 i don't think Xena would have cared as long as Eve was there.

Yes I can see your point, xc about how Xena shouldn't be allowed to have romantic relationships. But we never heard about Hitler wanting to atone of course...unless you count his suicide with his girlfriend. Xena wanted to be more courageous and actually FACE what she had done, and really do her part to turn her fighting skills to that which would HELP people, innocent people, and save them from harm. The whole thing that made Xena so loved was her COURAGE to get honest about what a nasty piece of work she had been for so long. A lot of friendships helped her get there, though. She had to be thinking of Lao Ma's teachings when she returned to her village in "Sins of the Past," as well as Hercules's effect on her, and whoever else. Gabrielle...she was something special, though, or Xena wouldn't be so totally focused on her as THE ONE who kept her in line, up to the end. Sure, Gabrielle was always there by Xena's side, reminding her. They traveled together constantly, so we can deduce that that was the main reason. Lao Ma and the others weren't in Xena's life long enough to really make a huge difference. The fact that Gabrielle was ALWAYS THERE no matter what, and always saw the good in Xena and reminded her of that...well. Yeah, I can see that making her more special than the rest of them.

i see it as a yin/yang friendship. Gabrielle was the opposite of Xena personality-wise for 4 seasons. Then Gabrielle eventually became Xena Jr & didn't have much caring about her. or so it seemed a great deal of the time. i wish they would have gotten rid of Gabrielle either by death or by going home so that we could see if Xena would revert to evil or not. That would have been more exciting than the Twilight of the Gods & the Eve story. At least to me! i don't believe it has to be a romantic relationship for one person to have a strong impact on another. Don't forget, as much as Gabrielle helped Xena, it can be said -and Xena said it- that she hurt her (Gabrielle). That's one reason i'd like to have seen them go separate ways, at least for most of one season. Gabrielle was an ever changing soul and unfortunately because Lucy got pregnant & insisted on filming Xena while pregnant. That's why Gabrielle got shuffled off to the sidelines as Xena Jr instead of continuing to grow. i remember a lotta ppl being unhappy that they ruined Gabrielle just to bring in Eve.

Again, I am mixed on this whole thing. People who once did inhuman things who really want to change and learn how to be a fully HUMAN person again..well. Romance is part of human nature, and it stands to reason that that would be realistic for Xena. It would actually work even better if Xena resisted romance with anyone until maybe a few seasons into the show, and then finally allowed it. Gabrielle makes sense as the best candidate for that. Personally, I am all about dispensing with the labels...homosexual, bisexual, whatever. They should just all go away, those labels. What's the big deal what gender it is you fall in love with, toward the end? Lily Rose Depp said it best, when she clarified her "coming out" as sexually fluid. She was trying to tell young people, her age and younger that LABELS should be eliminated regarding sexuality. Hence, the new terminology of "sexually fluid," over bisexual, homosexual, whatnot. Even "sexually fluid" is a label though. Society has placed so many prejudices against human beings for being with whoever they are with, same sex, opposite sex, who cares lol. Animals, however, are known for mating with their same genders as well as opposites...and it's just pure nature, all the way around. You don't see a bear attacking a pair of bears of the same sex getting together, for example. Animals do it all the time, and it's thought nothing of. Only the humans made a big stink about it. For this reason, I think that's why the reboot, for example, is marketed with Xena "coming out of the closet." Lol. It is ridiculous, as are all labels. Wouldn't it be great to see a story where it just HAPPENED, no big pomp and circumstance?

well, i have to differ on Xena having romance. i think it's fine for her to feel sympathy & compassion for ppl but i don't think she should have romance. Especially any romance that would get in her way of seeking atonement. i guess it's just me. i think it cheapens the deaths she caused and the lives she ruined. As long as she has her freedom to seek redemption on her own terms instead of being locked up in prison, i don't think pursuit of happiness & love should be hers to follow. Yeah i;m a grinch!

Anywho. My original point is...LOVE is a big factor in helping people evolve, be it romantic, friendship, family, mentor-to-student, whatnot. Xena was raped by Caesar. That kind of trauma can ruin not only a person's soul, but the ability to imagine romantic relationships of any kind. The idea of a romantic relationship even being POSSIBLE for Xena could be an amazing plot line in the reboot, but maybe in the 3rd or 4th season. It wouldn't matter, really if it were a man or a woman. Just the fact that Xena can learn to LOVE in the most intimate of ways, would be amazing, after all she went thru with Caesar, let alone how it affected her.

Xena was raped by Caesar? i don't remember that. i think unselfish, empathic love for all ppl would be best.

Anywho. Just thoughts. I haven't read much else on the reboot, but from what you say, xc, it doesn't sound like they would make it as deep and introspective as a story like that really needs to be. Regarding comedy eps and light eps, certainly I think some of that is needed once in awhile but yeah I agree that the original show got carried away with that sometimes. Joxer really did have no character development. If there must be a character like him, make him grow a little bit. Characters need to grow to stay interesting.

Lastly, like I said before, the element of mystery really made the original show work. If they want to clarify it totally in the reboot...it has to be done in a more realistic way, taking into account that ATONEMENT is the point of the whole premise, for Xena to be a believably sympathetic character.

i'd go for one or two comedies a year but they waaaaay over-did it with the original series. i haven't read whether Xena will have been evil or whether she's just yer run-of-the-mill warrior in the reboot. i wish for the reboot they would seek out opinions of ppl who watched the first series. XWP was a diverse show of ideas. It's gonna be hard to duplicate that.

But yeah, from what you said of the reboot and what you've read about it, xc, that probably won't be the case...which is sad. I may watch it a little, to see what they do, but I'm not expecting much. Oh well.

quote:

Xena was raped by Caesar? i don't remember that. i think unselfish, empathic love for all ppl would be best.

quote:

well, i have to differ on Xena having romance. i think it's fine for her to feel sympathy & compassion for ppl but i don't think she should have romance. Especially any romance that would get in her way of seeking atonement. i guess it's just me. i think it cheapens the deaths she caused and the lives she ruined. As long as she has her freedom to seek redemption on her own terms instead of being locked up in prison, i don't think pursuit of happiness & love should be hers to follow. Yeah i;m a grinch!

quote:

Originally posted by xenacrazed:
No worries on the story, Kate. i was thinkin about it recently and realized i made a major error in the plot. Then i forgot what it was!
i'd have to re-read everything you wrote and all my notes to see what the error i made was. Or maybe it wasn't an error but a gap in continuity.
i just don't remember...